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Did the Vikings Kill Gay People and Dump them in Bogs?
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- Published on Jun 6, 2023 veröffentlicht
- *CONTENT WARNING: Adult themes and images of human remains*
There's an odd rumour that's spread around that the Vikings murdered people we would today consider part of the LGBTQ+ community and dumped their bodies in peat bogs. Yeah, I know.
But what evidence do we have that same-sex relationships were frowned upon in the Viking Age? Was it really not OK to be gay in Viking Age Europe? Is this just a case of later church laws imposing their views on others? Did the Vikings really have masculinity so fragile you could knock it down with a feather? And what does an unreliable Imperial Roman writer, gladiators, and ancient undertakers have to do with all of this?
And where did I leave my tea?
Join Jimmy as he explores what sources we actually have on all of these attitudes, and maybe enjoy the birdsong and greenery as well.
The amazing work of Antti Palosaari, who made me my new intro animation: @Anttimation
Some reading:
www.kyrackramer.com/2018/11/0...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...
WARNING: mentions sexual assault: www.jstor.org/stable/40918734
www.jstor.org/stable/41658776
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Ancient Greek and Roman men really were the embodiment of the "you're gay because you love men, I'm gay because I hate women. We are not the same." meme😂
as a greek , theres literally a part in platos dialogues where the most conservative guy says if im allowed to translate in modern words "well i get you like some boys and then go back at your wife as a good husband, but these guys who have actual relationships with men EW" ...so yea
@tzatzikithere will always be haters
I gotta remember that one, that's funny
I’m very thankful for this video, as a gay man from Sweden I’ve heard all sorts of things about the Viking (well, Norse, I guess) general opinion on gay men . Both the “Vikings believed stuff we’d currently call progressive, it’s the Church who sucks, blame them” and on the other end of the spectrum “Vikings would have murdered you, modern decadence, Church made men weak and soft, blah blah I like fascism”. Thank you for saying that honestly we don’t really know as much as a lot of people seem to think we do. Either way, hopefully most people will agree that throwing people in bogs to drown is a horrible death that shouldn’t be a continued practice.
A good comment. Thank you. The impulse to demonize or valorize (and to treat the "Church" like it's one, unified, "ye olde American Evangelicalism" and not a web of sometimes conflicting cultural influences) historical groups is maddening.
Uh where is the connection between historical accuracy of homophobia in ancient peoples and fascism?
@zZOdysseus Zz Some people who like fascism use ancient history as a justification and a guide for what modern society should be like, often while ignoring actual facts about that historical period in favour of either complete fabrications or half-truths that just happen to support their own narrative/agenda. If you see anyone with a Roman marble bust as their profile picture, chances are they're just a fascist (or slowly becoming one) who has an extremely biased and incorrect glorified view of Ancient Rome, which they use as some kind of "golden age" to which we must "return". Impossible to argue with since they will refute any modern science and say "that's just what the woke mob want you to believe, my half-baked hunches and assumptions are totally true and logical though, so believe that instead".
are you drunk?
@zZOdysseus Zz Adding on to Trassel's response - these notions are actually particularly present within anything Viking or Asatru based, which fascist trying to drag anything Viking to the far right side. It's a real problem for many true believers of the old religion, because wherever you see a religious rune in society you must first assume 'fascism' rather than 'solidarity'. They are working hard to reclaim their own beliefs away from the far right, but it's tricky, nasty work
I love the idea that if you lost a Duel to the Death, you would be dead AND have to pay a fine.
I was really curious about this... How would that work? Does your family just lose part of the inheritance they would otherwise get?
Doesn't make a ton of sense does it? Primogeniature never made sense to me either. Your kids can't share?
@Phyphrus My understanding was that the whole point of that was to make sure land parcels wouldn't be divided up further - All the land belongs to the First in Line, no subdividing it to all your surviving sons, who would then subdivide among their surviving sons, until each parcel of land was only large enough for one family to work. Basically, land could be accumulated (e.g. if you conquered it or if your first born got to inherit your wife's family's lands), but couldn't be lost.
Of course, that's only for the Landed Lords- once you're just a dude on a farm with a couple of kids, it makes sense that one would get the house, while the other would get at least SOMETHING to help them on their way.
@washipuppy That makes more sense, but only if I don't overthink it too hard. It's the same yield either way in terms of farming. One system encourages feuds and the other, cooperation? I get that eventually there would be such distance and division in the family that any collaboration would be difficult, but even with loose ties, there's potential for alliances. Plus wouldn't it make more sense to try different management strategies (farming techniques and etc.?)
@Phyphrus It sure would! But you see, THAT way would involve thinking about others and working to better the land you're on and the way you use it - and if I own all the land, then all the people who work on it's farms have to give money to me personally, so I don't care. And if my baby brother Wilhelm doesn't get any land or money, I don't have to do make any kind of agreement with him - I get to give him things 'out of the goodness of my heart', and he either has to stay with my family to work and get that stipend, or he has to go off and join the army or get work as a day laborer elsewhere.
Of course, Wilhelm might really, REALLY want me dead to take my stuff. But if I'm just nice enough, and if everybody agreed that this is the way It's Supposed To Be, then he'll get over it.
Basically - there are demonstrably better ways to work out inheritance, land management, who is actually in charge of anything, and any number of things we just kind of do because we've always done them. But once someone got started with "I'm going to give everything to the eldest son, and the younger ones can go conquer some of their own lands or work for him, whatever," it kind of stuck around as a good way to accumulate wealth in a few places.
"Imagine being so upset that someone called you a bottom that you challenge them to a fight to the death" I'm absolutely certain such a challenge is being thrown out in a Waffle House parking lot somewhere RIGHT NOW, it's just no one's legally obliged to accept it anymore😅
Or an arbys 😂 absolutely. I’m in Florida I’ve certainly witnessed this.
Watching said duels is a major draw to Waffle House... I think they should embrace this and set up a ring in the parking lot... "Sunday through SUNDAY!!!!!! Sundown to Sun up! WWE got nothing on this! These are not 'professionals', these are drunks and tweakers defending their hetero-honor! ONLY at WAFFLE HOUSE!!!!" In that 90s monster truck pay per view voice... Yeah, their profits would be insane!
as a bisexual almost pansexual, I find straight and gay orientations oddly specific and picky.
I can understand not liking every option, but just having one option your whole life. just weird ... and like redneck homophobia weird and funny.
Imagine someone told you they like burgers and only burgers and if you ask them if they like hotdogs they loose their shit and try and beat you up. Guess I won't ask them if they're into sushi, probably won't go over too well. They seem like a burgers only type of guy, maybe with some bacon, don't wanna get to wild there.
@Hisame Artwork I agree with the stupidity of homophobia but picky is a really odd term.
Picky sort of implies you might like stuff if you tried it or are just being awkward. You cannot control who you are attracted to, people attracted to one gender aren't in control of that. There must be people you don't find attractive, could you make yourself attracted to them if you just tried harder?
The food analogy just isn't very good.
One of the fascinating things related to the Roman interpretation of same-sex sexual relationships is that it is reflected in the language - different changes to the verbs depending on what you're doing, which sexual position you're in, which gender you're doing it to, and to which oriface. Fun fact (as I remember it): from a lingusitic approach, women were not seen as in the dominant sexual position (things were done to them, not them doing to others) and therefore unable to reflect female same-sex actions from the perspective of a female agent.
I'm not sure that this reflected actual practice. There are some eye-popping murals in Pompeii with women on top, and I remember hearing a reading from some recovered Pindar where the female sex worker appears to talk about penetrating a man. As for Roman matrons having affairs, you are right, there is next to nothing written down probably because the idea didn't fit into a roman man's head.
@Marc OwenRomans seemed pretty clueless about women in general: Even their highborn women had no property, education, voting rights etc. And Romans seemed absolutely horrified when some of their enemies had an occasional woman in the ranks... A lot of suffering could've been avoided if being a woman wasn't considered a bad thing, and women were treated simply as people.
@Sienisota I think this has been happening almost everywhere for most part of human history
nothing changed much in 2000 years, then.....what an eyeopeners
@Sienisotainteresting how the same statement could be made of civilizations two thousand years later, with similar accuracy.
I honestly have never heard the bog thing. I mean, aren't the bog bodies thought to have been ritual sacrifices? Again, I haven't really done a deep dive into the research for decades.
Edit: Yeah, just a quick Google will tell you that some of the bog bodies found were children as well as adult men and women, so clearly it wasn't some sort of punishment for "sexual deviance". God, people will grasp at straws to justify their own bigotry. 🙄
Haven't watched the video yet, but I wouldn't assume that they didn't consider children capable of sexual deviance. That's one of those things that can vary widely across cultures
Tacitus probably heard people talking about bog sacrifices and interpreted it as some sort of punishment.
Bigots gonna bigot
@popejaimie
Sadly to this day children get accused of "tempting" grown ups. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't different in the past
In the end it shouldn't matter that our ancestors did something one way or another. We can judge their actions as immoral and act better. Whether they were child sacrifices or victims of a horrible laws
I do not know of course, because nobody knows for sure. Nevertheless these bog bodies are often so much cared for. The hair, the ornaments, the clothes, even sometimes bags and weapons are included on the bodies.
I think the "classic" idea, that these humans were sacrifices to the gods is the most logic.
One has just to look at them. They were very "preciously handled" before they came into the moor.
Some of them had substances in their bodies, so they were not fully conscious.
Does not sound like punishment.
"anyone who desecrates this runestone is a bottom" might not be historically accurate, but it does sound like something my gay friends and I would say to each other
This sounds like something that would be engraved on Reagan’s gravestone
My understanding from studying Seidhr, is that urgi or ergi translates as "desirous of penetration" so yes.
@James Stuart-Riley Relatable
As a gay man, who has a gay D&D character, I am going to have to integrate this into my D&D campaign somehow.
Though I didn't notice any mention of any explicit homosexual acts, I found an entertaining anecdote in the Laxdaela Saga about a woman who legitimately divorced her own husband after accusing him of wearing effeminate clothing, with the real kicker being that she was the one who had sewn his outfit.
Good old Tacitus. The Roman equivalent of the Victorians. He wrote about things he "heard" as facts, and if he didn't have anything, he made shit up...and over the centuries they became believed as truth. Tbh, from what I've seen, both in recent and readings into Ancient history, same sex relationships were usually just quietly ignored no matter what the "official line" was. Look at the number of female pairs who lived together as "companions" in the early 20th cent. It was tacitly "understood" that these women were together, but no one ever came out and said it. Humans have always ignored things they didn't wish to look at, and prefer to not rock the boat.
I like the one where the high ranking Egyptian officials were just tombmates. Also just imagine in real-time as those stuffy Victorian/Edwardian archaeologists brain were trying to bend that information.
@bernadmanny 😅🤭
"Boston Marriages". My mother a fairly conservative Christian was against gay marriage but for civil unions. She was worried about all those little old ladies in Boston marriages being elderly and having no rights to inheritance or hospital information/visits.
@Rebecca Holcombe Interesting. Though of course civil unions were only a stepping stone toward gay marriage.
Like Frederick the Great of Prussia
Later Christian propaganda or not, "Odin was a bottom" is my new favorite historical hot take.
Odin was a power bottom, let's be real.
Honestly, Odin gives me heavy masochist vibes.
@Sneering Imperialist Didn't he turn into a horse and try to seduce Odin? Or someone else maybe.
Sacrifice my brown eye for that divine wisdom.
Lovely opening sequence! The shifting cultural attitudes around masculinity through the ages are pretty hilarious (actually, given how horrendously toxic they can be, maybe not so hilarious.) The generally accepted norms change but there's that recurrent theme of "You must be this much manly!" And yet the one thing you can be sure of is that, whether people could be open about it or not, humans were (and are) infinitely more varied and complicated. We're still struggling to break free from dumb expectations around gender and sexuality, but it's so great that we can have these conversations! Thank you.
Well put!
We're all motivated by the same basic things, though: safety, security, food, shelter, etc. no matter when/where we live. History doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme. 😄
@C. Hopper I would agree with that. I imagine humans have not changed significantly as animals since the hunter-gatherer days. Our culture evolves rapidly, which is the game changer, but we're probably, for the most part, the same creatures we were a hundred-thousand years ago.
Also thanks for the clarification on bog bodies. Never heard of them as punishment for gay people, but I sure heard a lot about them being a sacrificial human for rituals 🤔
I read into this exact topic fairly recently and I wasn't prepared for how much of the conversation and references (nearly all of it) is centered around bottom-shaming.
Julius Caesar himself apparently had to deal with the issue of his own soldiers singing songs of his own affairs with King Nicomedes IV for the exact same reason, earning him the title of every Woman's man and ever Man's woman.
Ancient people in the Levant also had a thing about penetrated vs penetrator. Ideas of war and sex were pretty intertwined. Enemies who were killed by swords or arrows were perceived as being emasculated. If you want to find out more there is a book called "God: an anatomy." The whole book isn't just about this one subject, but it does cover it while talking about ancient ideas about God's penis.
I kinda feel like this didn't stop being a thing 😅
I thoroughly enjoyed listening to this. I'm both Scandinavian (Swedish) and gay, and I love learning stuff like this. I'm not in any way as knowledgeable as you are, but everything I've heard through the years about homosexuality in ancient times support what you talk about here. Homosexuality didn't become a punishable sin anywhere in Europe until after the Catholic church gained power. I wonder what they were so afraid of...
It's less fear, and more they had an Adamant notion on what is and isn't supposed to be.
Apparently it became severely punishable around the time of Theodosius and Justinian who were both Christian Roman emperors.
*By the end of the 4th century, after the Roman Empire had come under Christian rule, passive homosexuality was punishable by burning.[43] "Death by sword" was the punishment for a "man coupling like a woman" under the Theodosian Code.[44] Under Justinian, all same-sex acts, passive or active, no matter who the partners, were declared contrary to nature and punishable by death.[45].*
fear probably was not their main motivation.
when you wanna lead your often angry and frustrated people in all those wars and famines and struggles, you give them a target. Our world is way less crueal and harsh now, but this stuff never gets old. Wanna lead them? Give 'em a target. (f.e. a disaster is the wrath of the g0d for all the gayness in the land)
you can convince you political opponents sometimes. you can understand that racism is bad (f.e. by fighting together), but sexuality is such a primal instinct. once you are indoctrinated to hate LGBTQ people, you have kinda 0% chance to ever unhate them.
sexual minorities therefore are always the best targets. NO, this is not a good thing. It is BAD, but sadly it is a smart move from all kinds of haters.
@István Sipos
Not true, LGBTQ+ phobes can change, just like racists can!
Even in communities where same-sex relations are frowned upon, same-sex couples can exist and get accepted.
Same in regards to racism.
When I was a kid, we moved from the Capital to a very rural community - and back then it wouldn't be possible to be openly gay, but there were still young boys getting F'ed by elderly men...
Now it was very rural and there were a lot of religious people, (fishers, sailors, and farmers).
Now recently a guy I grew up with, a couple of years older than me - came out as gay, he even married a guy from Thailand and brought him with him on his fishing boat.
I thought most people would turn their back on him after this, and people were a bit weirded out by it - but then again, it was Poul who they've known since forever, and it only took a short while, then it was like it had been like this forever.
There's also a lot of racism in this community - but Hussein who has the Pizza place, they consider him one of their own.
I do get that the racism and homophobia is still there - they just make a mental loop where Poul is just Poul they grew up with, and Hussein has been making food for them for twenty years or so, and his kids went to school with their kids.
But it's still a small change in perception!
Heck, I used to have LGBTQ+ phobic views as well - and honestly, I've been a real prick and done some horrible shit towards gay guys when I was a kid!
And I'm terribly ashamed of it today!
My change in perspective happened gradually - and transphobia has been the last one I harbored - but now I'm free of phobia towards LGBTQ+ and trying my best to be an allied - not just because they deserve our support, but also to try to make up for the harm I've caused in my youth.
I'm not the kind of individual who spends a lot of energy feeling bad about shit I've done in the past - but this is different!
"You found me in a place full of dead people, and bushes, and bird song. Well done." Cracked me up, and Im not entirely sure why, but Im grateful for it regardless.
It totally sounded like a GM haha
(D&D)
Love your nuanced take on all this, and especially given the current US climate at least, it's interesting to keep in mind the potential differences between national or regional attitudes vs laws on the books, and how that could all intersect to influence daily life or not
You know what, I'm just going to point out a bunch of stuff I really appreciated about this video (in no particular order)
- The birds chirping in the background is just a really pleasant soundscape and I loved how clearly they are coming through on the mic here, it's very soothing to my ear
- The way you were getting squeamish describing some of the more explicit parts made me giggle like a middle-schooler in sex ed :>
- Great video title, the question is so overly-specific to the point of being ridiculous and you can't help but get curious as to why it's even being asked
- A bunch of relevant information is provided and yet the result is ultimately inconclusive - that's just how science works sometimes and it's always good to acknowledge that there are some things that we just can't know for sure with the available set of evidence
- The subject matter is pretty dark but because it's not overly-dramatized and delivered in a straightforward conversational style by a handsome man with a pleasant voice who seems passionate about this topic you are ultimately left with a positive feeling at the end as well as the satisfaction of having learned something new
Thank you so much for making this video man, really happy to have randomly stumbled upon it!
Being both Welsh and lesbian i love this video. Subscribed and looking forward to more ❤
More gay stuff 😊
Couple things I wanted to say
1. Love the new animated intro. It's wonderful.
2. Tacitus is considered a historian in the model of Thucydides, which might be the problem, because while Thucydides did take a more methodical approach to history than Herodotus he also did most of his corroboration behind closed doors and admitted himself that he sometimes just wings it when he didn't have any sources. And that was him recording the history of a culture he was familiar with and that he was watching unfold in real time.
Tacitus was a Roman citizen writing about Germans, a culture he was not familiar with and that he wasn't part of and writing about things that have passed.
3. I think you need to sell a shirt that says "History:We don't f***ing know"
Tacitus used _infamis_ in another of his writings ( _Historiae_ 2, 56 ): "Valens was so notorious for his dishonest [ _infamis_ ] gains and peculations that he was disposed to conceal the crimes of others. The resources of Italy had long been impaired, and the presence of so vast a force of infantry and cavalry, with the outrages, the losses, and the wrongs they inflicted, was more than it could well endure." Sounds to me like _infamis_ meant political and financial crimes in that case. (Valens ob lucra et quaestus infamis eoque alienae etiam culpae dissimulator. iam pridem attritis Italiae rebus tantum peditum equitumque, vis damnaque et iniuriae aegre tolerabantur. )
@Pat The Plant In short it sounds like a pretty broad term.
"My source is that I made it up"
Yeah, I enjoy reading Tacitus, but he's best as "reading between the lines for a criticism of contemporary rome" than taking anything he says at face value...
@Alexandra M Agreed. He does a decent job of showing a side of Rome more critical of it's war machine and treatment of "barbarian" people's in their conquests (which has lead some to believe he was of barbarian heritage) but even that is likely full of some embellishment since he then has a tendency to portray peoples like the Caledonians in a "noble savage" sort of light which is still something I don't like.
Plus he did have some Roman style bias in his observations, like his disgust with the Germanic practice of turning grains like barley into a mash, fermenting them in a barrel, and then drinking the concoction... it was beer, he was grossed out that they drank beer instead of wine like "civilized" people.
Thank you for taking the time to go over this so clearly and set out the timings and what else we know about the records and people who wrote/left them. Understanding the context and purpose for these things.
:)
really enjoyed this video, i remember when i first encountered how often in various cultures in history the focus was on bottom vs top, was fascinating to me. also, as a gay into history, it's really cool to learn more about the combo of the two subjects. i've seen too much arguing and aggressive lack of nuance over the years, so this was refreshing to see and to read the comments too
Thank you so much for tackling this head-on, and doing so in a very respectful way. I notice that a lot of these topics tend to focus on male gay relationships and sex - does history have anything to say on the subject of women loving women? Or rather, has it left anything behind that makes any sense to us today? I know, I know, it's nuanced, baby 😉
Literally almost nothing, from any of the periods mentioned :(
maybe women were more sly or people think they are just good friends .. ? most women hang out in groups to do chores and raise children so maybe it was less likely to be suspect ?
@The Welsh Viking I suspected that was the answer 😖 but thank you for taking the time to respond. I had a feeling if info were available, you’d have mentioned it in one of your videos by now
@A H that’s very sweet of you, but I suspect also a little optimistic. My guess would be that for a lot of history, women were less important than men, so it just wasn’t worth legislating. After all, you don’t make a law forbidding something unless (a) someone’s doing the thing and (b) you care enough to tell them not to.
I can't say much about Europe, but I know in Japan it wasn't uncommon for women to seek out male and female courtesans alike, and nobody really batted an eye, since cheating was the entire societies emotional support system. There are also some native american tribes and parts of India where people who weren't considered their birth gender (or at least not ONLY that) were welcome to be with men or women alike, though details slip my mind the Pawnee are a particular group I know about
I totally LOVE the animation!
Oh, aye, where's Jimmy?
Out in the graveyard, talking about delicate subjects.
This reminds me of a skit from All In The Family, where Archie says it's ok for men to be promiscuous, but not women. And his daughter asks, if men can be promiscuous but not women, who are all these men being promiscuous with?
Consent? Never heard of her.
A perfect world, where everyone is a top.
I've now consumed a fair amount of the history surrounding this topic and I have to say I really find it interesting, that this idea of having to be that specific image of masculinity, whatever that meant at each given time in history, was such a big deal. Sure it melts into general expectations of a citicen as well as hierarchy and such, but I think it is quite sad, that throughout history human relationships, no matter the type have always been seen mainly as some sort of hierarchy thing, where the passive partner, which mostly were woman are somehow made inferior to their partner, by being their partner and also being penetrated in sexual intercourse. Sounds like a very imature and simplified way of viewing human relationships.
As a gay man who is NOT into butt stuff (we exist), it's so disconcerting to know that the historical prejudices concerning homosexuality are so deeply connected to anal intercourse that it really would not matter if, as a historical gay man, I professed my lack of interest in anal intercourse to an angry mob wanting to tear me limb from limb. One can almost imagine the scenario: "You see, angry mob, I don't actually enjoy buggering people or being buggered by others. Please disperse. Nothing to see here!" It seems that these prejudices were predicated on assumptions as to whether a man is PERCEIVED to be the passive or dominant partner. There mere PERCEPTION could put people in harm's way from mob violence. In the present day, I don't think time has done much of anything to educate others as to what sex between two men is like. People still make assumptions as to whether one is a the passive partner who is penetrated, or the dominant partner who penetrates. No one ever humors the possibility that there are gay men who aren't interested in butt stuff.
.. hm so do most non anal gay men just sizzer then?or is it more like two swords crossing ?
Oral and handies and toys exist, you know!
@A H You're on the internet; you can find out for yourself really easily.
@A H If you're a straight man and you don't know that oral, handies, and toys are options, you've definitely been a disappointing partner to every woman you've ever been with.
Yes. Just..yes. It takes all kinds and disparagement from your own is often much worse (psychologically) than that from the enemy. Because we should all support each other. Period.
This was interesting and I had to go read more about the Saleby Runestone! I found several interpretations, fascinating that a word can mean different things depending on who reads it. :) The different interpretations got me thinking, would it be totally unscientific to think the threat on the runestone was something about infertility? Do you know if it was a thing in the Viking Age, to threaten others with the inability to reproduce?
Thank you for all the lovely comments on the new intro! Do check out Antti’s channel @anttimation for more!
Also if any new viewers amongst you fancy checking out my older videos, please do!
I highly recommend the video on Loki's sexuality!
I really like how nuanced it is and that the conclusion is: we don't know. But also, if it was THAT much of a topic, we might have more written records.
But it's really mostly about bottom-shaming and power, ist seems? And the fact that w|w relationships are never mentioned at all is another topic for sure!
Congratulations on the new intro! And yeah, isn’t it fun realizing that so many of yester-year’s biases and prejudices are still kicking around today? And to think it all started over the perception of whether or not one was “dominant” or “masculine” enough or wether or not you were even considered a person 🙃🔥
The churchyard is beautiful. What a lovely place to film with all the birds twittering away in the background. Thanks for another insightful and though-provoking video, Jimmy.
100% would buy a shirt that says 'History: it's nuance, baby'.
Or, "History: it's butt-stuff, baby!"
Omg yeeeees !!!!!❤❤❤
I would love that ❤
I love this!! With the logo on top?
@Danny Friar: I wholeheartedly second your comment.
@welsh viking: please!
Lovely expert commentary and the birdsong in the background was lovely too. I'm not sure when the state-mandated intolerance of homosexuality gained widespread legal claims in Europe, I haven't looked into that closely, but it would be interesting to suss out when and why. 13th century? Like the new graphics. York is lovely. Your videos have informed and entertained me for ages. Thank you so much Jimmy. I'm getting into examining and trying to reproduce VA clothing and your tips and recommendations have brought me a lot of joy with that. Best.
thank you for another very interesting video. A lesson in what is history as well as the title topic. Whenever looking into any kind of history, as an interested person and not a historian, I find it useful to always read a minimum of three 'reputed' sources. It's always interesting to note the variations in 'facts' and how human nature in the form of opinion/assumptions often slips in. Whenever there are gaps, the human mind will likely fill them. That is often as interesting as the actual historical narrative. This is one of the reasons I find your videos so interesting. You elaborate on the known facts and also on the 'fabricated' facts and their origins. Great stuff!
That intro literally made my jaw drop. Beautiful work Antti!
As a viewer from the faroe Islands, (we are right between Iceland and Scotland) this was fascinating! Love learning about the viking past, faorese is alongside Icelandic as one of the closest languages to old Norse!
This is fascinating stuff. Great to know how those who have gone before us were treated. I think the passive person in same gender intercourse is vilified in many cultures. Loved this. Thank you. 🤓 🐶 🧔
My jaw dropped when the animation started. Very well done.
Thanks for covering this topic and I appreciate that you always distinguish between what we know and what we interpret. Also that very little was 100% one way or the other.
Great work and thanks.
When was there animation? I was listening to this in the background not watching and I cannot find it now.
@Mr Ham N Eggs It starts at 0:20 seconds. The dragon moves now.
The new intro is wonderful! A true work of art!
This was a great video. It always surprises me that people still insist on looking at historical events and information with the lens of today. There are so many things that have changed in my life time. Things that would never happen today. Well wouldn't happen in polite society. Minor things like being hit in school for using my left hand to really scary things like seeing a mob call for my family's death. All the miracle products that were going to fix the world and take us to a bright new future. Heck I remember when seat belts came in and driving to the last has station in the area that still sold has by the gallon! You can't even use today's lens to list the resent past. Why would anyone think it would work?!?
As to the shirt, we definitely need shirts! My son just got a machine to cut out the vinyl for shirts... Now we have to figure out a press! Oh and set up this thing! So for enquiring minds who may or may not ever get around to something what's your shirt size. If course I'm thinking someone will have them in your shop before I figure this thing out!
Thank you so much for all of the work you do to dismantle misconceptions.
Second & third that!! I would imagine it must be exhausting, because educators like Jimny are not just putting forward information, they ALSO dismantle misinformation & misunderstandings. Double the work, all uphill because it's attacking people's entrenched preconceptions, and constantly juggling with YT's damn monetization rules too 🙄
Yay, a new Jimmy video! They always make me smile exactly because you so often don't have the one and only answer and that makes it a lot more interesting in my opinion :)
also, I really like the new intro
I love the new animated intro! Very cool! Also, what a great subject to kick off Pride month!
Damn bottom shaming is quite older than I though. It meaning I can challenge you to a fight to the death was also news to me.
It does seem like if they were true bottoms they would win though, we’re quite durable 😂
Just plain misogyny.
@Laurencsik István As the video says, it's probably a lot more nuanced than that. The annoyance at the perception is understandable, but it's a disservice to your case to oversimplify.
It's not the most nuanced thought pattern, but I too , have always viewed men whom bottom as less masculine. The main functionality of masculinity is expansion and domination, so someone who enjoys being dominanted surely seems less traditionally masculine.
True
If you can manage to handle the pain of it, you could handle anything else imaginable most people would avoid
I like the new intro. I also like that history doesn't always lead to solid conclusions. So basically we know that sexual assault of slaves including male slaves was not unheard of. My guess is that it was common. That tracks with my understanding of absolute power.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely
Well, we have fairly good records of slavery in later periods (especially America), and it certainly seems to have been common then.
@MsSteelphoenix Yes. That's what I was thinking of too.
This is generally considered by many scholars to be the behavior actually being criticized by at least a couple of the clobber verses. Specifically, men having relations with their young male servants/apprentices, and it seems sort of likely that the problem with this was specifically a combination of the fact that you were only meant to have sex with your servant in order to produce a male child to inherit your birthright because your wife had not produced a male child which, of course, you couldn't do if the servant was male. The writers of the Bible also understandably wanted to separate the "law" for the Hebrew people from the ways of the people they'd been living amongst. There's actually a very important reason why Leviticus explains the logistics of "slavery" solely as a way for one Jewish person to pay a debt to another with very explicit rules that set it apart from the slavery and other types of servitude practiced in Rome. (Disclaimer: I am not a Christian, I am just a religious studies enthusiast who has read a lot about the nuances of interpreting the Bible within its proper literary and historical contexts)
@MsSteelphoenix common almost seems like an understatement. It is truly horrific how often masters sexually assaulted their female slaves, especially when you consider some of the truly inhumane and evil things they did with the children born of these assaults.
Fantastic content as always.
Love the updated intro too! The Dragon of Wales, animated and breathing flames is extraordinary.
What a wonderful, nuanced conversation! Happy Pride to all
The new opening looks great! Anyway, I can give you another data point, though one that should be taken with a big grain of salt. In _Gísla saga Súrssonar_ there's a scene where a man named Skeggi challenged another named Bard to a duel. Bard did not show up, so Skeggi commanded one of his men to carve a likeness of Bard and Gisli (the main character of the saga -- Skeggi was angry at both of them,) "And see," he said, "that one stands just behind the back of the other, and this laughingstock shall stand for aye to put them to shame." (online translation, I can't find my _Sagas of the Icelanders_ at the moment.)
I kind of see this as drawing graffiti, it definitely seems to be at that level of mockery. Of course, this is a social attitude rather than a law, and likewise while the events depicted are in the Viking age, the Saga itself was probably not written until the 12th Century -- so hundreds of years later. Does this show Medieval rather than Viking-Era attitudes? Is the whole thing just historical fiction? Who knows?
The new into is really cool! Always interested in nuance. If something is too simple it's probably not the whole story.
Glad I found your channel. I'm a huge fan of all things Viking, especially when they're presented well. And you are an excellent, and articulate, presenter.
Quite a few women in bogs, too, but no mention of possible offences other than adultery. As far as I can see, if you're not a famous poetess writing about your lovelife, they didn't view sex between women as 'real' sex, because 'parts'.
Going by memory, so treat with same caution as you would Tacitus. The Roman emperor Justinian, I think, makes men doing it with each other a capital crime, but the law do not mention women.
@H S Surprisingly common. In the UK the law that banned Homosexuality prior to 1970s also only banned it between men and the "1940's germans' only sent queer men to the concentration camps, lesbians were almost entirely untouched. Very few men have ever really had a problem against lesbians, thus laws are frequently only against the gays.
@David Cruickshank If I recall correctly from my research years ago, they were just considered "hysterical" or "confused" it's such a weird backhanded insult. Like the poor women were too simple to get what they were doing.
Bog bodies are celtic human sacrifices
Always love hearing you give my native language a whirl Jimmy!
I'm curious about the word you've written as rargr because I recognise it as the modern Icelandic adjective argur (argr), which now has connotations of queerness, and the noun version ergi that you mention, or alternatively the adjective ragur (ragr) which means cowardly. Is rargr in some old Icelandic law text that I could find?
I love the way you talk about history, it's very humanizing of the past
Not bottoming discourse being a medieval thing too 😩
I kid I kid. Thank you for the video! A very interesting look at the sources. Also really enjoying these outdoors videos! Pretty locations! Greenery! Gravestones!
Also, not gonna lie. Even though I'm a history nerd, I could listen to The Welsh Viking read the phone book and be content. *Love at first sight*
Happy Pride month! I’m really happy that there are people able to have mature and nuanced discussions like this about history, and it’s very important that we do. Thank you very much Jimmy! Btw, the new intro is amazing!
Outstanding reporting! I love, love, love great research like what you provided. Thank You!
Starring in the early 1980's (exposing the fact that I am oldddd), I became fascinated by history and would spend as much time as possible in libraries reading as much as possible. Now! We are blessed by many brilliant young people, like you, who provide even greater illumination than I ever thought possible before the internet was available to everyone in an instant.
Naturally, I happily subscribed to your channel today. Thank you for the brilliant work you are doing. Cheers from the USA!
I've just discovered you because I'm interested in history. I'm Binge watching and just wanted to say how much I'm enjoying your videos.
Can we talk about the Thor dressing in women’s clothes story? Because I know that story and it’s freaking great. And I cannot think of that story without Chris Hemsworth and Tom Hiddleston.
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
Isn't it implied that Thor literally transforms into Frigg's form? Like I know that it is still really Thor but Chris Hemsworth wouldn't really play the character until the very end^^
(if i put a "anyone who takes this flag down is gay" sign next to my pride flag, i wonder if it would work. huh. food for thought...)
what a wonderful video for the beginning of pride month. LGBTQ+ history is one of my favorite topics and it was great to listen to you talk about it. it's also good to see you happy and healthy and in such a beautiful place.
also WOW, that dragon. literally made me gasp. dwi'n caru your new intro!
I'm so glad I stumbled onto this channel.
I normally can't pay attention to someone talking for more than five minutes, but this was really calming and engaging.
Love the new animated intro! Thank you very much for this great gift of info on Pride Month! Studying the queer side of the Vikings and Norse gods is a huge passion of mine and I know a lot of the speculation and scholarship surrounding queerness in the written works like the Sagas and Eddas but almost nothing about the archaeological side of things! This was very interesting!
Loki in drag has me actin up
@A Random Anvil dont forget Odin!
Have you written a book? If not, please do! I like the way you speak, and I find your enthusiasm for being historically accurate endearing.
Love this video; the nuance and that "we don't know" is so important. It always baffles me when people spread misinformation on things we literally don't know.
Also, I would love to help make merch tbh. 👀
I mean, if you’re down to collab I might be! Your Viking Spidey is rad btw
@The Welsh Viking Aaa thank you! And I'm definitely open to a collab! :) My DM's are open if you want to discuss it more!
Thanks for such an interesting video! Definitely subscribing and starting to work through the back catalogue 😊
The title instantly raised my blood pressure and put me in defence mode 😡
Now I'm calm again - and relieved 🥰
Peace and love from a Danish history teacher 😊
Edit. I've of course seen the three famous Danish bog bodies 🙄 It's a quite powerful experience!
When we visisted the Grauballemand my 6y old son instantly senced the calm and serious atmosphaere around him, and I explain it's how we show him respect. THEN he realized this was the real thing! Truly in awe
Stop lying; from wikipedia.
"That's wrong, Germanic societies were, if anything, much harsher on homosexuality before the church.
Jimmy likes to dismiss some stuff because it's from after the Viking age, but all of our Norse sources about the Viking age and Norse Mythology are from after the Viking age, but all Norse sources say the same thing and are confirmed by their related Germanic people's laws on Ergi and other sources. Norse sources show that Ergi (effeminateness, homosexuality) was found irreprehensible and shameful, crossdressing was unacceptable and shameful, accusing someone of homosexuality or being Argr merited a fight to the death.
Roman sources also confirm this about Germanic cultures and the law codes of the Germanic people also share this. Friesians and Saxons shared this concept of Ergi and had similar laws, castration or death for homosexuals for Friesians and duel to the death for the accusation for Saxons."
Im half danish, half norwegian. I dont want you to spit on my ancestors by making it seem like they accepted your evilness
@Erlend Jarl Bjaarstad Where from Wikipedia? What sources is it associated with? There are a lot of debate, but the sources of ACTUAL Vikings are extremely rare, and basically none are associated with queer relationships. There is an immense difference between frowning upon something, accepting it in certain scenarios, and actually persecuting people for it with punishment and death.
It's extremely important to remove our perceptions of proper when dealing with other cultures, including with regards to ancient societies. Roman and Greek culture accepted queerness in many situations, some which are absolutely unacceptable (as mentioned in this video), others where it's very meh and neutral.
@Erlend Jarl Bjaarstad You say "stop lying" to a history teacher and then quote Wikipedia... This is the level of intellect among homophobes.
Wonderful to hear you speak Welsh and old Norse for want of a better word. At the start you mentioned using modern concepts to describe old times/mindsets. To those that hold that view, isn’t every age guilty of that? What is the point in describing something in a language that very few have a common reference. Languages evolve. Great video. I must subscribe now.
I can think of a single bog body from the Viking age or just after it-the Skjoldehamn body-and for one thing it’s obviously _not_ a “dishonourable” burial, and for another we don’t even know if the person buried was Norse. Also, considering the geology of the island, a burial is hardly likely to be a “dishonourable” place to be buried.
DNA evidence point to it being a Viking woman, and not a man. And the garments are exceedingly close to traditional Saami garments for women. You can find the thesis in excerpts online: New Thoughts on the Skjoldehamn find.
@Torchwood Pride
The DNA testing couldn’t find any Y chromosome or Sámi specific markers, but the DNA was really degraded so we can’t interpret absence of evidence as evidence of absence. It’s also worth noting that even if the body _is_ that of a Norse female, it’s not dressed as one, because if you interpret the clothes as Norse, you must also interpret them as masculine, whereas if the clothes are Sámi we don’t know enough to make any interpretation of gender presentation.
@Torchwood Pride
I’ve read both Løvlid’s master thesis _Nye tanker om Skjoldehamnfunnet_ and his follow-up article _Skjoldehamnfunnet i lys av ny kunnskap,_ and found them both very interesting.
@Ragnhild I randomly came across this video, haven't seen it yet and honestly gonna go to bed cause it's late but I kept seeing skjoldehamn in the comments and wondered why it rang a bell. Then I realised I know someone online from there and they sent me a card and some chocolate for christmas, how random that their small area is mentioned here. Where can I find Løvlid's thesis and article?
@Raffie
Your best bet is probably to search for the titles (listed above) and his name, Dan Halvard Løvlid.
Very impressed by Antti's work!
The runestone could even be something of a challenge. "Only a REAL WARLOCK can break this stone!"
That was an excellent treatment. Hopefully at some point we can gain some greater clarity concerning the definition of the concept of 'warlock' within a Viking context.
very enlightening! love learning about these aspects of my ancestry -both the Welsh and Scandinavian
Very interesting, I love to hear about social history.
Well researched, well thought out, and very well presented, as usual. This is why we love you. Hugs
Ahh nuance strikes again! I really wish people didn't think everything in the past happened at once or didn't change. Thanks for another great video (and love the new intro!)
nah lets just oversimplify things so that instead of admitting the world is complex and requires a lot of calculation and effort to make sense of, we can just open our book of memes!
" I really wish people didn't think everything in the past happened at once or didn't change"
yes. we had warships, then, several centuries(!) later, we had stirrups. History is WEIRD.
meanwhile history tictoccers: "hold my phone"
Thank you! For 2 years I'm working at a slow working progress to write a book (my first one!) It happens in Wales. There is a link to the Viking gods. I needed your material but I didn't know where to search. And bt the way it will be a gay friendly historical thriller.
I love such a nuanced take on this very complex subject, where it is sadly the case that different kinds of people (some with bad motives and some with good motives) are all to fast in spreading misinformation or wishing to see things in a light that suits their own interpretations. History and culture are very complex and much is lost, wherefore it is most of the time not possible to say by 100% accuracy how things where or can be seen, but going by what we can find for the time now, it seems clear that many of this cultures where not the way how they are often presented - or how some people like to imagine them. (Sorry for My bad English, but I normally seak German and are better in understanding English than speaking or writing it).
The new intro is stunning😍 Also I want to give a shoutout for your notification squad❤ You've managed to build such a nice and nuanced (and funny 😋) community. Just wanted to say that before it eventually gets unhinged here the longer this is up😅
woahhhhh that intro is super awesome! its so great that you shared the details of the creators, also damn not even a minute in and the word bu*t-stuff has already been thrown out I don't think I've even read any Ao3 fan fiction that has moved that fast😂😭
Love the new intro! I also appreciate that you clarified a lot of misconceptions about this topic.
The thing I enjoy most about Game of Thrones is that it makes me reexamine my cultural perceptions and fantasy theories. I have just finished season four and my take away is that girls who don't disguise themselves as boys when in insecure situations are being stupid. Then I contrast this with everything I know about unruly situations in the 'real' world and I think again that this is the smart way. Now, with more information today, I am leaning toward the idea that being ugly and undesirable is the choice. Be as pretty as you like when in a secure environment. Be ugly and apply 'stank' when not. Am I overthinking this?
Yes.
@Мэйденлесс Грей To be fair, I am as much into the imagery and costumes.
Yes! It's so fun to look at my own cultural upbringing through different lenses (I'm writing a fantasy novel at the moment and I love to explore different cultural setups). And I also enjoy GoT (the books are lovely but don't let it spoil your joy for the Show. It's so well done from imagery, costuming etc. ❤ and if you want to know how it ends you better watch the Show. It's a bit hasty but I don't think we will ever get the last book😂)
Anyways, I think your train of thought goes in the right direction. I love the comparison between Arya and Sansa's journey as they are so different in their reactions and approach. 🤩
@Мэйденлесс Грей You beat me to it, I was going to say the same thing.
Different strategies but neither are silver bullets. Women who dress well/attractively get raped, but so do "skanky" women who are perceived as lesser than. As people who can be abused with impunity because no one in society will stand up for them.
You mentioned insult poetry and now I'd really like a video about that and the Norse/Viking Flyting tradition. I know a lot about the Scots tradition from my university days and I know there was a similar thing in Scandinavia but I don't know too much about it. Tell me about the Viking Rap Battles Jimmy!
Super-interesting vid, full of nuance & great refs to further sources as always! 😊🙏
I think its worth pondering the modern context within which these discussions are being held, too.
I understand why we LGBT people & allies with interest in history want to gain a better understanding of queerness throughout history: to balance a picture of the past that has tended to be warped by more modern mores (& in some cases, possibly seek representation/validation in the past).
It's worth also questioning the motives of people who erroneously argue "gay=bad, & our evidence is Vikings bog-murdered gay people". Are they looking for representation too, by seeking homophobes of the past whom they can identify with? Are they seriously arguing that the mores of a sparsely-recorded pre-modern society should be considered a good basis for forming healthy attitudes & laws today? Are they over-identifying with their mental picture of "Viking-ness", for problematic ultranationalist reasons? Are they individuals with Northern heritage just trying to better understand a cultural past fragmented by later Christianisation? Or sadly, are they possibly just eedjits trolling to get a rise, esp. during Pride month...? 🙈
I really appreciate you cite things, events, books, scriptures, and also give further connected to topics youve discussed ! its nuanced !!
That intro stirred the Welshness in me from deep within 🏴❤
I can't stop laughing at the idea of a curse being "if you break this, you're GAAAAAAAAAAAYYYY".
I love that new intro! The dragon animation is fantastic! I also loved that little snippet at the end of the churchyard and gravestones. With all the birdsong in the background it seems a peaceful place to relax. There are some people out there who will go to great lengths to project their own taboos onto other, earlier cultures. Thanks for dispelling rumor with (nuanced) truth.
The intro is indeed fantastic (in many senses) and the setting was amazing. I agree about people pushing their own taboos, usually cloaking it in religion to give it legitimacy. They seem to spend an awful lot of time thinking about what other people do in the bedroom.
Fascinating! I thoroughly enjoyed this! Thank you!
You are wildly entertaining to watch. Thank you.
love the new intro. What a beautiful spot to film in. Why do i feel that even if we had a time machine, we wouldn't remember to ask enough people for a proper sampling so the answers would be skewed? was it one set of rules for wealthy and another set for commoners? was it a regional thing, some folks cared others didn't? or was sex just sex and it didn't matter at all? none of it set in stone? as usual more questions than answers and fun to ponder.
Odd thing about argr and ergi is that there's descendant words all over northern Europe that aren't brought up that often when discussing the norse word. These sibling or descendant words don't all mean exactly the same, but they all seem to touch on a system of ideas we have around strong emotion, the ability to direct it effectively, and general reliability, which I suspect is connected to the top and bottom thing. At least for high status males, the norse have similar priorities as the Romans and Greeks, where social status is more important than gender roles, or status can sort of overwrite gender.
They seem to think that being emotionally "subordinate" to someone else, male of female, makes you an unreliable authority figure, which endangers the whole clan collective and the social order they rely on. Sex is just a funny bodily function as long as the proper social hierarchy is upheld, but love and passion is pure kryptonite to the norse manly man hero.
I think it makes sense if terms like the modern Norwegian arg and ergre preserves some of this meaning - to be arg is to be angry in a specific way - to be provoked to the point of acting excessively. To ergre is to deliberately make someone arg. Which kind of fits neatly into the still living idea where men claim to have no control over their own actions because they were so mad/horny/drunk at the moment.
Thank you for putting up content warnings. Really appreciate that, I find it so considerate.
I don't know why I'm always surprised that people don't already know these things 😅 i must have been a history nerd in school. My best friend had never even heard of Stonehenge before I mentioned it x ps love the new animation he did exactly work ❤🎉
How in the name of all the knowledge gods does anyone manage to grow up not knowing about Stonehenge? Were they raised in a cult? There's a full scale replica built as a WW1 monument in the Pacific Northwest. And there was/maybe is a full scale replica in Virginia called Foamhenge.
I mean, the amount of movies that have featured or referenced it!
All I can think is sheltered east asian, African immigrant, or cult.
@Susan Yeske this was just before we got our teenage hands on the internet, I don't know how she'd never heard of it maybe it's cause family wasn't very cultured 🤷♀️ I did happen more than you realize, also I live in a small town of country bumpkins so that tells you a lot right there 😂
I appreciated your refreshing and honest take on this subject.
Love the New Intro!!! The Dragon is alive, I swear it! Great video, thorough without dragging in the slightest. I live in Australia, where it's winter, and I loved hearing the birds in the background, too. Felt very summery while I'm feeling cold! 😄
I think I've seen your work before. This one is really lovely dive into some parts of history that are fairly obscure. Even queer history occurred in the 1600s and 1700s and 1800s in Great Britain and the US is not really well known to the public - you generally need to take a course, or watch some fairly specific videos, be in rather specific subcultures of subcultures, or stumble upon it in your readings - and that's the Anglosphere that is relatively close historically to our time, and has a lot more documentation than events deeper into the past or in less prosperous lands (if you're wondering, it was basically that you could be executed if discovered (in worse times, things got worse with time, even as, in many respects, knowledge grew over the centuries, liberty ever further repressed, even after the executions stopped), you had to remained closeted, but there was a surprising amount of freedom (if you were wealthy, that is - the law basically didn't apply to you, it was mostly a relationship of power).
To learn a little about the lives of people long ago, is so wondrous - I wonder, if through implications and studying various similar societies, along with mixing together a little narrative, psychology, sociology, you could piece together what life might have been like, for example, a young viking guy who goes more for the axe wielders of the clan. Even if we're lacking a lotta documents, we might be able to gain an eerily close rendition of what life could have been like (especially because, different families, different groups, even in the same ideology, social structure, government type, way of life ect. do behave differently). One of the curses of documentation about oppressed groups is that they were oppressed, so their writings either, they didn't really have the material to write down things on, you can't parse the truth behind their words well, eandor their works just didn't get saved. Optimistically, this might just be something that so inherent, people just never really thought to document it - which is unfortunate in its own way, but at least that way would imply people might have lived much freer lives together. Excellent work, will look forward to your other videos, on material culture, lives of people, and other such cultural elements of peoples!
That, "Coincidence?!" at 18:18, just kills me every time. Re-watched that bit several times just for the giggles! :)
So basically it was a "I'm not gay bro, I was on top" situation? And I doubt anybody'd dare question Odin, "the All-Daddy" does have a nice ring to it~
Like all the "straight" men cruising guys on gay dating apps.
This is so interesting.
Thanks for making this video!
Hello! Very much enjoying your channel!
I was wondering, if you should ever need an idea for a video, if you would mind speak on leather craft/work of the Vikings? I am a leather worker and very interested in its history. I would love to learn what kind of tools and techniques the Vikings (or just the people of that time/place) used on hides, skins, and such And what they DIDN'T use! Would very much love to see that, if you have the time and desire to make it.
Cheers!
Very informative and comprehensive.
Also: totally here for extra graveyard content :)
Thank you for going over this tidbit of history ❤ 🌈
Oh, I love your jumping right in to this topic- of course it’s all mysterious because we just don’t have the knowledge!!! It’s tempting to jump to conclusions as we do, that’s why it’s great to here your educated opinion, thanks Jimmy 🥰