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Who Deserves Blame For The Conflict in House of the Dragon?
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- Published on Jan 23, 2023 veröffentlicht
- The Dance of the Dragons is upon us. How exactly did we get here? And who are the players responsible!?
The Great Council of 101 AC by Campbell White
Young Daeron by Douglas Wheatley
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Viserys 100%.
1) Fathering more sons after making Rhaenyra heir
2) Ignoring the fact that Aegon’s birth changes things
3) Refusing to follow his grandfather’s footsteps and hold a Great Council
4) Treating his own wife and children like shit
5) Ignoring Rhaenyra having bastards
I’m sure there’s more but this is just off the top of my head. Viserys was the architect of almost everything that went wrong in his family. His weakness cause the Dance.
This whole comment nails it tbh. Every bad call Viserys made led into the next! He was passive when he should have been decisive/aggressive, and vice versa. Viserys lacked both teeth and prescience, and he was so naïve in his assumptions that everyone would just get along all hunky dory after he died and still follow his vague wishes. Boo.
Sometimes I think to myself that at least Viserys was a good man, even if he was kind of a wet Kleenex king …but then I think of that old Nietzsche quote along the lines of: “Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws”.
Agree. He was a nobleman but a weak politician
Agreed.
1. I agree. Fathering more children at all, let alone sons was the ONLY problematic thing he did. That is all.
2. Aegon's Birth changes nothing. The KING chooses his heir. The Council of 101 was when the King had chosen his heir twice. The issue was both heirs had died and the council was to decide between Claimants who were, according to the book, "Already gathering armies to dispute their claim". Very different situation. The King CHOSE to give up the decision after two Sons died and the direct line of succession was in dispute BY THE PEOPLE IN MULTIPLE LINES OF SUCCESSION. Very different from here during Viserys life.
3. The reason for him refusing to hold a Great Council are explained above. He didn't need to. His Heir never died. He had a son and repeatedly after that claimed his Daughter would be Queen and nobody directly confronted him on that in a meaningful way except the family of Aegon. Period. Without his claim being supported by his family (And later him, since in the beginning he didn't want it till his mom manipulated him), there wouldn't have been a war or a serious dispute. Rhaenrya would've been Queen.
4. Be more specific? How did he treat his wife and kids like shit?
5. He equally ignored Aegon having Bastards. This is something that's not nearly as black and white in the books. It's VERY hard to say for sure if Rhaenyra's kids are actually bastards or not. In the show, he still ignores all his kids having bastards equally.
It was the Hightowers alone who hold the blame here. Without their plotting, conspiring and manipulation of Aegon, there would be no alternative to Rhaenyra. Aegon himself thought his Half-Sister was going to be Queen. He had resigned himself to that. It was his Mother and his Grandfather who pushed his claim, despite the King saying otherwise specifically. That's treason in anyone's books. What king wouldn't kill/imprison his wife and her entire family if he knew they were going to overthrow his heir the minute he died? Viserys's last meal was his Wife, admitting his Daughter would be the Queen. He had every reason to believe his succession would be followed. No High Lord of Westeros would've rose against Rhaenyra if Aegon and his mother never pushed his claim. If they supported Rhaenyra, there wouldn't have been a Dance. Anyone who protested would've been burned.
Honestly every event of the season 1 could have been avoided hadn’t Viserys decided to father a son with Alicent. Tho on his defense i feel like he was also pressured by his own advisers particularly Otto. The guy is a people pleaser let’s be real 😅 Targaryen’s have a habit of destroying themselves 😂 they’re chaotic and i love them
It also was the fact he felt genuine friendship with alicent(while hers was there I imagine it was quite different)
I agree. Viserys was a bit dumb when it came to see through people. Like how Otto planted his daughter in front of Viserys the minute Aemma died. Then when Viserys rehired Otto as Hand it was even dumber, he should've asked Coryls Velaryon to be his Hand once Lyonel Strong died.
We should all know without the chaos you don't have a storyline. Lol!!! 💯
How do you know Viserys decided it? Sometimes kids just happen. Alicent could have even tricked him. We don't know anything about that.
@scambammer bro in the show he litterally send a maid to call alicent to his chambers because he want to sleep with her, how exactly does alicent trick him?
Alright folks, look past your Team Green/Black allegiances, or even your neutrality for a second;
Viserys is truly the main one to blame. Forget Otto and Alicent, forget Corlys, forget the Council, nah, it was VISERYS who led this BS to its boiling point.
Like genuinely, whether you're Team Green or Team Black, it should honeslty be agreed that Viserys is by far the most responsible for the Dance of the Dragons that happened right after the end of his reign. Like dude, Jaehaerys and his wife Alysanne set you up with a Realm of great stability after over 50 years of rather well-run administration, and you hardly took any notes from them, the Succession Crisis being the most important one in this case
Viserys did nothing wrong
Oldtown conspiracy
😂😂😂
Otto is mainly responsible
Viserys created the situation. His refusal to acknowledge tradition and assume legal precedent didn’t apply to him. He gave Rhaenyra the same mindset and it’s gonna fuck up the lives of everyone involved.
Facts. Viserys is to blame. Forget Otto and Alicent, forget Corlys, forget the Council, nah, it was VISERYS who led this BS to its boiling point.
Like genuinely, whether you're Team Green or Team Black, it should honeslty be agreed that Viserys is by far the most responsible for the Dance of the Dragons that happened right after the end of his reign. Like dude, Jaehaerys and his wife Alysanne set you up with a Realm of great stability after over 50 years of rather well-run administration, and you hardly took any notes from them, the Succession Crisis being the most important one in this case.
@Thalmor Agent I mean he just put everyone in and dangerous position. Didn’t matter what they did. They would always be a threat to one another wether they wanted to be or not.
Tradition is really to blame. If women were seen the same as men, naming heirs wouldn't have been an issue & everyone could just chill out.
His refusal to acknowledge tradition and assuming precedent didn't apply to him backfired because tradition and legal precedent is basically how he became king in the first place and held onto the throne. Rheays was more competent.
If we really wanna get nitty-gritty, it was Jaehaerys who messed up. Everyone knows that Rhaenys should’ve been queen over Viserys. He was so weak.
Even if Rhaenyra didn't have bastards I still think the Hightower's would've put Aegon on the throne. Alicent decided to be against her because Rhaenyra slept with Criston and didn't tell her and Otto was against her once Aegon was born.
Thats the thing. Even in the original draft of the dance, Rhaenyras kids werent bastards and the dance still happened. Sadly that just gave them an excuse. Ultimately Rhaenyra wouldve moved from kingslanding regardless of legitimate children or not. Because Alicent fears wouldve still been there. Also Alicent ended up doing a self fullfilling prophecy.
they got the chance and took it, their situation is basically what many lords and highborns are dreaming about. opportunists of their time.
I think Alicent would have betrothed Rhaenyra's firstborn legitimate son and Helaena
100 % , Otto said even if she was Jehaerys reborn , lords would not accept her because she is a woman.
Making Rhaenyra heir was Otto’s idea, in order to deny Daemon the position of heir. Otto knew he wouldn’t be Hand if Daemon became King.
Otto was genuinely worried cause if Daemon ascends the throne it's only a matter of time before the realm implodes
@JMP × ABD that's exactly what happened when his own grandson usurped the throne. What's ironic is that during the war it was Daemon who made wise choices and it was Otto who F***ed up
@Mer Iem His grandson wouldn't have usurped the throne if Viserys just listened to Otto again and made Aegon heir which he really should've been
The only way for the dance to be avoided is if Viserys left Daemon as his heir and if he betrothed Rhaenyra to him.
I agree . Also if he had no children with Alicent.
Awesome video! I couldn’t have said it any better lol but at the end of the day Viserys could’ve prevented all of this.
Really liked that you included Damon’s i influence on Rhaenyra when he returned to kings landing. I didn’t even think about that but it makes sense. He’s the one who gave her the idea that you can just do whatever you want even if your married and that’s how she got herself into such a shitty position.
They're so great
I've seen a lot of people criticizing Alicent over not wanting Haelena to mary Rhaenyra's son, but I think that was the best decision, obviously if Rhaenyra was the queen and the war was avoided her succession would be questioned over her heir being bastard, the house hightower would be "complacent" with treason, she wasn't being pity, just reasonable, Rhaenyra set the strong boys for faliure with the lies, and if they keep up with killing everyone that says the truth, would be a matter of time for a riot against her, just like with Maegor the cruel
who would question it? who would be questioning the queen of a family with 13 dragons to back her?
@Tabinda Murshed when you have an opposition who also have formidable dragons, mind you they have vhagar and dreamfyre (she is not used in the war sadly) people would be brave to question it and choose the other side.
the blacks may have a lot of dragons but many of the dragons and their riders are inexperienced or not formidable enough for warfare especially dragon combat. even some the riders are not to be fully trusted with. there is a couple of passive ones too.
let’s be honest here the houses are fighting in the war for selfish reasons or because they benefit something from a side. even there is a couple of houses who choose a side but they did not do anything for the side they declare for.
they’re chilling doing nothing at all only declare for the sake of it or either have their own wars to fight over. another some of them actually appears for support to their side only in the end.
i do think fire and blood warfare wise is flawed, i’m kind of dreading how the show will play out the war to be quite honest. i’ll look forward to it though.
@what dey doing ova der? heya! so the queen in reference is helaena- as jace's wife. the OP said there would be questions about their succession so alicent didn't want them to marry. my question is who would question the succession of jace and helaena (the queen referred to in my post) whose family- has 13 dragons (targ family dragon riders)? so thats assumption here is that they dont have an opposition since alicent married helaena to jace and they has suceeded rhaenyra as king and queen. surely her own brother's vhagar and her own dragon in that scenario aren't challenging them? the point is- only the house of the dragon can challenge itself (at this point) noone else. if alicent wasn't creating the challenge- it wouldn't exist. we can argue hypotheticals of daemon posing challenges, his children posing challenges, claims for Aeg3 and Vis2- but theres very little evidence of that tbh. at the time of the proposal- the targs (i'm discounting daemon and fam here) had- 8 dragons. the only challenge could've been daemon? but he didn't seem top of mind for alicent there. im assuming he'd be old as hell and dead after rhae's long reign. he certainly wouldn't challenge her reign. and laena is laenor's sister and their side have only ever backed jace's claim- corlys' name on the iron throne. the only real defense rest of the lords have against dragons is politicking- if the house of dragon was united, politicians would be dragon feed. as simple as that.
@Tabinda Murshed good hypothesis but it's too optimistic. as simple as that? no. very little evidence? the blackfyre rebellion litterally exists. a legitimized bastard can indeed rebel if there is enough houses and bannermen who would support them if they find the king unsuitable enough. jacaerys is also a bastard. daeron ii was a legitimate and a decent ruler mind you but he still have people rebelling against him.
aegon, aemond, daeron, would likely marry themselves into powerful houses and have children of their own. these powerful houses and others would try to convince them to go to war. remembering that jacaerys was a bastard whether it's true or not, it would give a reason for people to be against him.
even if they don't excecute it now, they would prepare for it in the shadows for other generations to finally use all the preparations and excecute the plan. hate may be festering in them and naturally would grow with their children. those kids would not care about who their aunt was. it would be a three way war between the greens male descendants, jacaerys's descendants, and daemon's descendants. too much dragons and families.
@what dey doing ova der? so if we were to discuss from alicent's pov, she has no such reference points. blackfyre rebellions did not happen before the dance. also there are no legitimised bastards here. noone is even acknowledging the illegitimacy nor talking about it- not even the valaryons (laena laughs and we know what corlys says) other than alicent and hightowers. and as for resentment- aemond may have festering resentment at this point (maybe not- he wanted to reach out to jace at laena's funeral) but it can be course corrected. aegon does not have the same resentment- he gets along with his nephews and doesn't care for the throne. he's resentful of alicent, of having to marry helaena, not rhaenyra and the kids. daeron is a nil factor if he has 4 older siblings and their successive children/grandchildren in line before him. the only ppl prepping for war at this point are otto and alicent. jace and helaena would've given otto what he wanted right? every other scenario you put forth is way too much of a could be, would be, may be. its also basing the whole blame of the dance on rhaenyra's children's bastardry- as if that was the reason for that was simply not the case. 'prepare aegon to rule'- was otto's instructions to alicent even before the bastards, the green dress and declaration of alicent's war as well. she had an opportunity to backtrack the war with the wedding, bridge the 'festering resentment' that she was the largest propagator of. but she didn't. and she didn't- not because she's years ahead in her wisdom to foresee rebellion of some grandchildren against the ruling line. but because- i quote- "You are the king's firstborn son, and what they know, what everyone in the realm knows in their blood and in their bones, is that one day, you will be our king."
Ultimately, King Jaehaerys caused all of this in the first place. Everything that Queen Alysanne proposed were always right and he ignored one of those things. The primogeniture rights of a Targaryen woman.
Very true.
What were the things Queen Alysanne proposed?
@Imperator-vo4to She wanted the Citidel to allow female masters, she wanted Rhaenys as the child of the first born son to rule as tradition which apparently some expected. She wanted her daughter to be older than 16 to Wed and have children. A LOT of Jahaerys' successes were because of her
I think the entire point of season 1 is that life is complicated and almost everyone involved had some level of blame.
And that communication could literally save lives & stop a war from occurring.
Whenever there is more than one heir, there will be battles or disagreements to say the least. Aegon named Aenys his heir much to Visenya's dismay, when Maegor bent the knee, Aenys hugged him and said that they will rule together until Aenys exiled him for 5 years and he went. After Aenys' death, as usual many rebelled and Visenya brought Maegor back and they took back the kingdom. Maegor didn't usurp the throne from Aenys but he did from his children. His mother and his thing was if you're weak you shouldn't rule, which to some degree is right but then Maegor went nuts and became extremely cruel. Rhaenys and Visenya were both sisters yet their children and children's children didn't just happily coexist so it was going to be impossible for Viserys to take a second wife and not have contention for the iron throne. Even if Viserys' useless son Aegon got the throne and Rhaenyra did nothing, Daemon did nothing, Aemond or Daeron might or even if they do nothing, Aegon's bastards might come to claim the throne from his trueborn heir. The iron throne will always challengers, always. Even people who can't spell or pronounce the word Targareyan will say that they're a Targareyan bastard. Jahaerys lived long and Jahaerys tried to show Rhaenys and Corlys that it wasn't his choice, it's the people's choice. And deep down I don't believe Rhaenys or Viserys to be corrupt monsters who would do anything for the throne. All that being said, Otto Hightower worked as Hand for Jahaerys too, so he's been able to fool him as well so I wonder how good of a king Jahaerys was. Viserys definitely was weak, Daemon was too impulsive and had violent tendencies, Corlys too. Maegor had also named a girl his heir, his niece's daughter. Viserys does imply that Otto might have killed his father, I wonder if that was true. Every now and then, Viserys, Rhaenyra annoy me in the show but Alicent I can't stand her, she is like the high sparrow of the game of thrones and he was annoying as well. My favourite queen in the show was Aemma, maybe Aemma and Rhaenys should have ruled together.
This is a good take. I think regardless of Rhaenyra not being a womam otto wouldve pushed for aegon somehow. He had the perfect excuse of her being a woman tho. Not to mention a war could ensure in the future, because Rhaenyra and Aegon had TOO MANY kids with dragons. Idk why Viserys didnt control the amount of people that had them.
Viserys was so concerned about not being remembered or just being an average king with no big plans or deeds, but it’s HIS fault. He allowed everyone around him to control his rule, when he could’ve actually done big things or changed the status quo
I blame Viserys and Otto.
My two main culprits as well!
Can we also just acknowledge that rhaenyra and allicent were quite obviously more than friends. THAT is why their other relationships cause so much hatred between the two. I feel like too many people missed that
If Rhaenyra and Laenor had sons that would have pure valarian blood their claim would be far stronger than Alicent's sons who's blood is only half valarian.
I have my cents on this, both sides of the conflict are responsible for the war escalating how ever there are four main people at the top that are heavily responsible as the creators.
Alicent , Viserys, Otto and Rhaenyra, Viserys was a weak king compared to Aenys Targaryen, he lacked the strength of Aegon The Conqueror, the brutal nature of Maegor and the wisdom of Jahaerys.
Otto was a schemer and manipulator he got rid of Daemon and Corlys from the council in one episode of each of other, and he put Tyland on the council that’s a clear sign of the Hightowers greed and control over the king.
Alicent is a victim of contributing to the destruction and the crimes of treason, she was manipulated by her father, and of course, she didn’t stand up to him only until after Viserys died, and she took her power back by holding control over Aegon along with usurping Rhaenyra and she became paranoid because of her father poisoning her with the thought of her children being killed.
Rhaenyra infidelities with Criston Cole and Harwin Strong were one of the enormous mistakes that she made recklessly however she was married to a man she was not in love with nor had no desire for plus isolating herself from court was a terrible mistake and not gathering enough support.
If she was a man, you would not be saying such things and try to give her an out.
@Helen A
Which are you referring to Alicent or Rhaenyra or both?
@Seth Fitzgerald alicent is no victim. She is a grown woman who made her decisions regardless of the consequences which she was clearly aware. Same with Rhaenyra, but at least she was heir. She wasn't grabbing power that she wasn't entitled to though...
@Helen A at first Alicent was a victim of manipulation but further down the line she was no longer a victim. That’s where the sympathy for her went out the window
In my opinion, the fault lies primarily with Viserys and Otto for very different reasons- but most of the conflict was orchestrated by Otto, in poisoning Alicent against the Blacks, who then poisoned her children against the Blacks. Green supporters love to paint Rhaenyra as irresponsible and ill-prepared, but as the chosen heir it was VISERYS's fault that he appointed no one to teach her how to rule properly and who then allowed Otto back at court after promising Rhaenyra to get rid of him in return for her getting married to Laenor. You put it excellently that the Green's would have disputed her claim even if her children weren't bastards, but there is significant cause to believe that the Greens helped Viserys select Laenor BECAUSE he was gay so she would HAVE to have illegitimate heirs. The cards were stacked against Rhaenyra from the beginning and there was no way for her to win with how Otto set everything up- so I blame him and Viserys.
We don’t know how prepared she is because she hasn’t been shown as a queen yet, in the last episode she seems to be doing her job well considering circumstances.
Agreed I definitely believe that the Greens would've disputed her claim even if she didn't have bastards.
It was Lionel strong who made the match not the greens .
@darksaber Lionel Strong is implied in the books to be an Oldtown plant, even if he does sound reasonably 'impartial' with his decision-making.
Gay people can still have kids - it doesn't mean they are infertile. And honestly show Rheanyra should have at least gone for someone who looked like her husband. Had Viserys taught her politics, she'd know that.
That match worked in her favor as she obtained a naval fleet, more wealth, Corlys and more dragons. So I can't imagine the Hightowers wanting her to get that.
I primarily blame Viserys. It's one thing to hypocritically break traditions that got you into power in the first place. But it's a new level of incompetence to not prepare your heir for any backlash.
All he had to do was listen to daemon. Daemon gave viserys good advice from episode 1 on
How I see it:
1. Viserys.
Solely for being just dumb enough to remarry, willfully just allowing problems to build in the hopes that they go away like a total dumbass, and not training his heir. Right alongside allowing a civil war to obviously build right before him, thinking he could stop it with one dinner as his Hand, whom he fired once, schemes to still go through with a plan to fulfill his own ambition.
2. Otto.
Self explanatory.
Was planning and scheming from the very beginning to put his House first instead of serve like an actual Hand to king and the Realm.
All while driving most of the continent into civil war to feed his own ambition
3. Daemon.
While I like him somewhat for speaking the truth about Otto and Corlys to his face in episode 1, and while he is loyal to his House and brother, a lot of his actions are just chaotic. Not to mention he literally causes problems for Rhaenyra in bringing her down into the city.
4. Corlys.
Pushing a problem that his wife moved passed all while trying to feed his ambition like Otto, but to a lesser extent.
5. Alicent.
Primarily for allowing herself to be a pawn to her father and dumb enough to believe that Rhaenyra would kill her children.
No matter the traumatic circumstances of being with Viserys, she allowed herself to get played by everyone around her and reaped what she sowed in the end by not taking action in being her own person.
Great answer.
1.otto 2.viserys 3.alicent the it's not the other 2's fault especially corlys his ambition is more about his legacy that has nothing to do causing the dance
And daemon... His mistake with rhaenyra in ep4 led to her mistake with criston which made criston one of her main enemy....
Alicent - Rheanyra might not but the fear of Daemon killing her kids was pretty legit. But she could have avoided that with some strategic marriages. Instead of being all prissy about things.
Great answer
Viserys
Otto
Rhenyra
Alicent
Mainly it was Viserys’s decisions alongside Rhaenyra’s claim that her sons aren’t bastards. even though, everyone in the council knows their true Idenity
Having bastard was not the real Problem
Even if rhaenyra 's children were true born
Greens would have still not accepted rhae
@dracarys 🔥 not a problem but planning to make them sit on a Targaryen throne is the real issue
@Tide shoreside legally they were legitimate since Laenor claimed them as his children. And they are as much Targaryan as Alicents children.
Not to mention Rhaenyra had two full Targaryan sons so using her children to steal her throne was meaningless
To be honest it was Viserys.
Rhaenyra did nothing literally to prepare herself to be queen. Except marrying daemon. Idk if she’s naive or what. However, when you look at the greens otto was making allies since agon was 2/3 yrs old if not before. Alicent also was making progress with larys, and also by always reminding agon that ppl are expecting him to be king.
Otto could have made efforts to help Rhaenyra instead of bolstering his own family's standing and being a twat
I mean she did rule in kingslanding for years but was bullied of by Alicent and the greens. Her biggest mistake was moving kingslanding. But even we see that a few bunch of lords in court, didnt wanted to bow to Aegon, particularly lord caswell.
@Tuckernutz he TRIED in episode 2. He tried to teach her in episode 2, the essentiality of making ties with other houses. Practically guided her as to why choosing a kingsguard from a more affluent house would favor her house but she rejected that notion simply because she was immature, had some sort of crush on Criston and wanted to one-up otto for the previous scene in the council room. As has been her way, even when rhaenys tried to council her in this very episode she took rhaenys's council as an insult and then proceeded to insult her back. There have been multiple instances where people have tried to put her on the right track but she never listens. That is the very gist of her character; impulsive and self centered. She never learns and just counts on her dad as a backup whenever the need arises lmao
@Mercuriolgy True, she had some allies but not particularly strong ones (no pun intended). The small council were almost all team green excluding lyman beesbury. i can't put up with the fact that in all these years that she was in kingslanding she didn’t get someone by her side or at least convince her father to add some of her allies to the small council.
@Tuckernutz Ethically speaking yes he should’ve, but he saw a weakness in Viserys and wanted his family’s name to become a part of history and in hopes for it to become one of the main big houses.
Noone really says this but for me.. blame lies with king jaehaerys targaryen and his inability to pick his own successor. It set the stage for this to happen.
I blame vaserys for trusting Otto
The real villain... Is Jaehaerys for taking the throne instead of his elder sister, thus setting in stone how Westerosi succession works.
I don't get why anyone thought Rhaenyra owed it to Alicent to tell her that she slept with Ser Criston Cole. Perhaps she didn't tell her because it would get Criston killed if Alicent had told it. Rhaenyra has made reckless decisions, she had a chance to pick her own suitor and didn't which put her with Laenor who is repulsed by women intimately so she had no legitimate heirs with him but she could've at least had her bastards by someone who looked similar to Laenor so that it wouldn't have been so obvious. Also I definitely hate that Alicent taught her children to despise their older sister and nephews, by doing that she ensured that conflict would happen, that wasn't a way to prevent conflict.
Alicent didn't have to teach her kids to hate the other faction. Viserys's obvious neglect for alicent's kids and VERY obvious favoritism for rhaenyra was enough to make the kids despise the other side. Imagine having your eye plucked out and being permanently disabled but your dad is only focused on ensuring that your big sister's mistakes remain covered. Kids see things and those kids were seeing things very clearly from the get go. Why on earth would aemond like the strong boys when they bully him in the first place for no good reason? And its been confirmed by the showrunners that the scene in ep 6 wasn't the first instance of bullying. Also, it's not like rhaenyra (the adult in this situation) has been shown trying to forge any bond with her siblings. Not even helaena, her only sister. So yeah, what a baseless take!
Rajendra swore on the soul of her dead mother she was telling the truth, and Alicent took that seriously. When it turned out to be a lie, Alicent took that seriously too.
@Will it wasn't Alicent's business
@Moeiza H. That blame should go to Viserys, Rhaenyra didn't tell her father to favoritise her
Viserys was a bad king and Otto was planing this ever since Pince Baelon's death (Vis father) . Looking past these two we all know who the rightful heir was .
Otto Hightower. I don't like the word he used but Daemon was spot on in episode 1.
Otto is definitely up there!
Daemon was 100% right about Otto and about viserys being weak
I like when he tells Otto " However much the leach feeds, it always wants for another meal !".
No. Otto wants his daughter on the throne. It is her execution of the plan that created the conflict
A bit like Robert Baratheon placing Ned as his hand to have a close friend to be there and see through everything, in the end Ned saw everything but was not dirty enough to play the game
I wonder how often rhaenyra or alicent wishes they really had just flown away when they were teenagers
If Daemon would have killed Otto in the 2nd episode, it would resolve everything 😂
Easy: Viserys, Otto, and Daemon
In my opinion there are four people responsible for the conflict:
- Otto Hightower. He had a point about Daemon being a loose cannon, but he was an hypocrite. He claimed to be working for the Realm, but his true intentions were self interest. He manipulated her own daughter making her think that there would be a war by the time of Viserys' death for the throne, but the truth is that he spoke of the war the Hightowers were planning to put one of their own in the throne. If he cared about the Realm, he would have supported Rhaenyra and try to keep the peace.
- Jaehaerys I: He started the seed of the issue at the Great Council of 101 A.C. Sure, the nobility of the realm decided, but he should know that this would create future crisis. In other words, he should have had Rhaenys as the heir to create a precedent.
- Viserys I: Viserys should have followed the precedent established by his grandfather. He was right to disinherit Daemon, but should have kept Rhaenyra as a heir until a son was born. Later, after Aegon was born, he should have named him heir and prepare him to rule. In addition, he did nothing to close the strife between the Greens and the Blacks, turned Rhaenyra into a entitled woman, and did nothing for his other four children.
- Rhaenyra Targaryen: There are people who were made to rule, and people who aren't. Rhaenyra was the later. She thinks she can do what she wants and her father would protect her and the Realm would turn a blind eye, and she thinks the Realm would accept her as she is the heir. Also, she is politically dumb. She did a pageant that she could have used to gather allies, but she doesn't even finishes and she insults the Lords of the Realm. She had the chance to choose an adequate husband and she did not. She had three obvious b*stards and she knew the Realm would never accept bastards. She did nothing to build her power base in King's Landing and the Realm while the Greens did so.
What about Alicent ?!
@Mer Iem I consider she was manipulated by Otto.
Otto Hightower is truly to blame. He wanted to rob Rhaenyra of the Iron Throne and with Alicent and Viserys' sexual predator son Aegon II sitting on the Iron Throne as king. House Hightower will gain power. Alicent is also to blame. She misinterprets what Viserys said to her about her Aegon the Conqueror and thought she wanted their son to be the next king. Is Rhaneyra also accountable? Yes. She wasn't happy that Viserys married Alicent and it drove a wedge between them and she made questionable decisions. Now Lucerys id dead. It will be all out war between Rhaenyra and the Hightowers.
Excellent commentary!!
It would have been interesting if rhaenyra married a Lannister. Then they may not have backed the greens.
Even tho I love him as a king and father and his portrayal on house of the dragons it's king viserys fault he should have only named rhaenyra heir until he has a son as he only gained the throne because of male primogeniture and then becomes king and throws that out the windows and dont get me wrong I'm team black haha
#1 Otto for pumping out his daughter.
#2. Viserys for catching up to Ottos manipulation and allowing him
Back………..
In the books it was Alicent Hightowers and her father, in the show version in was the whole family of Hightowers.
The Targaryen's f*cked up by not making cadet branches of House Targaryen like how House Stark has House KarStark. House KarStark was founded by Karl Stark a younger son to the King of the North, he was granted lands and had a castle built and got to rule that castle and after him his heirs ruled it and in time it got called House KarStark.
Even monarchies cannot function without a basic framework of laws & not just by “it was duh kang’s word”. Otherwise, if a king as influential as Jaehaerys' word meant nothing soon as he died, then why should Viserys' word mean anything after his death? The Great Council was clearly a legal body, in style of the Zemsky Sobor that chose the Russian Tsar, meant to set precedent for all future successions. Here's why : the Small Council advises the king. It does not officially vote a ruling into existence. But Jaehaerys didn't say "the Great Council simply advised me and I chose the king", he deferred to the Great Council's vote entirely. The king wasn't chosen by the Great Council's "advise", it was chosen by the Council's "vote". Which means it was defacto a law making body. And more importantly, I believe Viserys cannot overturn a precedent that made him king in the first place, without illegitimating his own reign.
Just take a second to think how hypocritical that was for Viserys. Rhaenys WAS the rightful heir as Aemon's daughter, but the Great Council chose Viserys as he was a man. They exercised male primogeniture, therefore setting it as a precedent. Westeros is not male exclusive but with rare exceptions the inheritance has always passed to the male son first. A precedent which Rhaenyra Targaryen and her sons happily affirmed when she had multiple opportunities to press Baela's claim, or that of the elder daughters of Rosby, Stokeworth etc, and bypassed them for male heirs. Even when she was winning the war. Ask Viserys II how he felt about Daena's claim to the throne!! I guess the OG Viserys would've done well to remember what Jace said in the show, "a king should honor the traditions of his forebears".
The whole thing about the king's "wish". It is an illusion and completely dependent on what he can and cannot enforce. Power resides where men believe it resides. The kings who succeeded, like Jaehaerys or Daeron II, all understood the necessity of compromise along with force. Viserys had no ability to enforce his decision. Therefore the blame lies on him for going forward with it. Unless you consider Viserys a mythical god, then there was no reason for the Greens to abide by his pie in the sky delusions. If everyone else wanted Rhaenyra there would've been no civil war and the Hightowers would've been crushed. But instead the 3 richest kingdoms supported Aegon.
And this is exactly how it works. You got the lore correct to the nth degree on this one. Thank you for paying attention and not believing Westeros is some type of fairy tale land. You are absolutely correct.
@Jose Hill salty much?
There's a reason why I call him Viserys the fool.
I say Alicent. Granted Visyers having kids with her made it complicated, but Alicent listening to Otto and pressuring the succession made things so much worse. Plus Alicent had a grudge against Rhaenyra. Honestly, I’m gonna put it on Otto and Visyrs too. Otto got pressuring his daughter and putting his own ambitions first, and Visyrs for not shutting Alicent down more successfully.
lol otto conditioned allicent to antagonize rhaenrya. lol. its not conditioning if its a fact. or did you forget rhaenrya wanted to kill her one of her half siblings at when he was a child and she tried to do it as soon as she learned that it was aemond that claimed vhagar. or did you really think that scene of rhaenrya asking daemon "who do you think it is" didnt have any significance? To drive the point in harder they did rhaenrya proposing marriage and alliance to daemon as aemond and his sibling fly away on vhagar and other fully grown dragons that dwarves any on her side instead of being tortured and killed like she demanded. Subtlety is too smart for the black stans.
The show made more things confusing and more characters stupid in my opinion. The books made it clearer. Because there really was no law stating a woman could NEVER inherit the throne, but the Great Council is used as the reasoning for it when it wasn't that. It was a public vote for the lord's to decide on who they wanted to rule (if the masters were truthful) and Viserys won the vote which Jahaerys respected and chose him as heir. If anything it's a precedent that a heir can be legally chosen by a lord/lady. Because if women had no chance of ruling then why did we see some rule their lands and such?
****SPOILER ALERT*****
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I absolutely CANNOT WAIT until Rhaenrya has Otto beheaded. I literally hate that man. Obviously a lot of the characters have made mistakes that built up to the Civil War, but that’s exactly what they were, mistakes. Otto was always fully aware of what he was doing and what the outcome would be, and was willing to use and abuse the trust of everyone around him, including his own daughter while she was too young and naive to fully piece together what her father was doing. Viserys did make a lot of mistakes and his mistakes did have a snowball effect on the entire realm, but he was never trying to start a war within his family. He had a kind heart and clearly suffered a lot throughout his reign between the death of the one woman he truly loved, the loss of more than one child, the realization that the woman he tried to find love with again was only a pawn in The Game who was using him, the headaches caused to him by daemon through the years, and the physical and mental deterioration he suffered from the throne itself. While both sides fanned the flams of war, it was ultimately the Greens, spearheaded by Otto, who caused the Civil War, the division of the realm, and the loss of the dragons.
I absolutely can't wait for Sunfyre to eat Rhae.yipee 😋
Rhaenyra is also to blame she had bastards with Harwin Strong and tried to pass them off legitimate when you can look and tell they wasn't. She had three years to pick her husband she had an opportunity no female gets and ruined it.
usually GRRM writes that if one side causes conflict...the other side also isnt totally innocent of it.sadly in the show,,,the showrunners are clearly "blacks" fan so they put every blame on the "greens".also GRRM's vision of the story is to show how conflicts and poor choices create more hatred and future conflicts...if not resolved earlier by sane people,on time.also he shows that even antagonists are not full antagonist nor protagonists are full protagonists...just like in reality.
Viserys. Viserys deserves the blame.
Phew great done in time for dinner!
Otto did what any man in Westeros will do to strengthen his house like Corlys Velarion. When you see it from different angles you will know that the blacks are the bad ones and Rheanyra is more like Cersei but a bit idiotic
Cersei is idiotic too. However that’s the only thing you are wrong about. If Viserys married Laena and had a son after Viserys names Rhaenyra heir you best believe the Velaryons would do the same thing the Hightowers did.
@Jose Hill you saw what Carly’s did when Viserys said he’s going to marry Alicent
Tbh if the strongs survived. None of this would have happened. Harwin could have married Rhaenyra and PEACE AND LOVE .
How? Rhaenyra was already married to Laenor.
Lets take this further , old town, the citidal, the maesters, conspired to poison all of Aemma's pregnancies, kill off any surviving infants, push Daemon out, marry a hightower woman to Viserys , slowly poison Viserys so he dies young, pit dragon against dragon .
Nobody poisoned Viserys. He was always sick and feeble.
So the Hightowers were playing the long game? Agreed. And they won. Starks did the same in GOT.
It’s all Viserys’ fault.
This is gonna sound wild, but I blame Jahaerys and Otto Hightower. Otto hightower is the main schemer. He murdered Baelon, and uses every moment to spread disunity between the Targaryens. However it's Jahearys' fault for appointing Otto. Holding the great council(which was likely rigged). Had Jahaerys not been such an alienating sexist and listen to Alysanne then the dance couldve been avoided. Also he'd still have his daughters.
People who blame Otto are mentally challenged and there seem to be a lot. Otto is the only smart guy in HOTD who did everything right. Since when is it a crime to be ambitious? And he NEVER betrayed or scammed anyone for his ambitions. He simply demanded what was his . Viserys himself named his 1 day son heir before Rhaenyra. He set the precedent that son before daughter. Then does a 180 and names Rhaenyra out of guilt. Otto was right to suggest naming Rhaenyra heir to stop Daemon. He was also right in expecting Viserys to name Aegon (his 1st born son) as heir like he did with his "1 day son". Otto was right again in suggesting Rhaenyra marry Aegon to avoid any conflict. Only after all his good advice was discarded, he HAD TO PROTECT HIS FAMILY. Aegon would be in danger as soon as Rhaenyra took throne. Even decades after she takes throne, Aegon will always be a thorn to her ruling. If she pisses off 1 or 2 lords, they will ally with Aegon or Aemond and Rhaenyra would BE FORCED TO DEAL WITH THEM one way or another. Aegon and Otto's family would never be safe
What you dont understand is Viserys I loved his wife Aemma and everything she birthed he sees as his but Alicent is different she is just a brood mare to have more Targaryens so the bloodline doesnt die out.
Alicent never loved Viserys and he never loved her. Thats why the Hightower kids are all messed up because they didnt come from love but deceit and duty.
It all begins with otto
Alicent thinking vaserys changed his mind in his dying bed while under the influence of milk of the poppy knowing it was two Aegons was disingenuous and self seeking at it’s best
Completely agree!
Umm no.
jahaerys should have named his neice heir
GRR Martin has said the Dance would have happend even If Rhaenerya didn’t have bastards. It was just a pure exemple of some toxic men That didn’t want a woman to rule.
But her having bastards didn’t help matters at all. It’s almost as if she set that trap all on her own.
Viserys, he should have married Laena amongst other things, lol
If Viserys married Laena and she had son, the Velaryons would no doubt do exactly what the Hightowers did.
@Jose Hill I actually doubt that considering they didn't agree with Viserys being chosen over Rhaenys just because he was a man. Also, it wouldn't have led Rhaenyra to marrying Laenor and having bastards
No, Rhaenrya was a child and did childish things. This is not her faults because the minute that she knew better she tried but Allicent wouldn’t budge. Rhaenrya had to have those children otherwise she would lose her claim just like her father had to remarry or his claim would have been lost too. This is their tradition, she had no other choice because her husband was infertile.
Viserys could have forced things to make peace but the resentment from the greens would not subside anyway, so he was in a catch 22 scenario too.
Allicent quite literally raised her children to hating their sister and her children. From the offset. It’s all her. I’m sorry
viserys for being indecisive and remarrying, and also rhaenyra for being a dumb harlot
Viseris. Always Him.
its entirely Viserys fault.
I'm team green but Deamon was right Otto is a ***** same to Deamon himself while viserys is just awful at being king
Its Rheanyra's fault.. the end!
I think it goes Jehaerys then viserys then otto then alicent then rheanyra then aemond
Viserys is to blame
Viserys and Otto. I m team black. It doesn’t matter rhynera have bustards or not. But marrying second time create problem
The Hightowers.
I say Otto and Viserys :) but mostly Otto
Viserys. Obviously.
Otto Hightower and Viserys
the maesters.
Greens are to blame.
Jaehaerys. He usurped his eldest sibling's crown. Refused to accept his first-born as a queen in her own right. Did everything in his goddamn power to keep his eldest grandchild from being a ruling queen. All while participating in killing his mom, forcing his wife through pregnancies SHE DID NOT WANT, participating in killing his other daughter, and treating the rest like crap if they happened to catch his attention. All while ensuring that Targaryan incest would be accepted far after he died because of his supremacy doctrine. He hates women soo much that he forced the realm to set it in stone.
He set the laws that let this conflict happen bc he couldnt not see women as inferior and did nothing to ensure Rhaenys, Aemma, Viserys, and Daemon were a strong family unit who could rule the realm. If he just gave up his crown to Rhaena he wouldn't have had to deal with his own hypocrisy and fear of his own legitimacy (which he was right to) thus doubling down even harder on everyone else around him.
Otto. And only Otto.
Otto Hightower and Corlys
Actually, it’s the culture/systems fault.
Says who? Are you a writer? Go and write a fanfic then.
@Michael Nkomphela just my opinion bro, opinion about a tv show lol.
Otto. No one but Otto
IMO, Viserys was the king. If he named his daughter the heir, then that should be it. His only mistake was putting up with other peoples crap.
I say, what if Criston Cole never turned into a little whiny snitch because a 16 year old princess didn't want to abandon her duties and run away with a guy twice her age? Or, What if Otto never pimped out his 16 year old daughter to the grieving King? Or if Daemon never perved on his niece and took her to a brothel.
Otto Hand of the King, Criston Cole Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and half of the Council commited treason as soon as the started planning a flipping a coup regardless of King Viserys being adamant about Rhaenyra being heir to the throne. Personally I would place most of the technical "blame" on Otto Hightower, Larys Strong, Criston Cole, and a little blame on a manipulated Alicent.
Shoutout to Ser Harrold Westerling for having some honor.
Lol, Viserys was made king over the Queen that never was because he was a man, the council chose Him.
He was king but frankly his word was worth shit.
It's otto's fault.
The blacks are worse than the greens in my opinion
Exactly, don't get me wrong, if rhaenyra is chosen as heir then fine, kings word & all that. But she should have BEEN trained for it, or at the very least she should have trained HERSELF as heir, instead of sulking on dragon stone, letting the greens poison Her father(metaphorically)
Not only did she sulk on Dragonstone but she made no effort to strengthen her claim or make allies of her own among the great houses. Knowing that the Greens were going to oppose her claim at some point.
@Ed Dayne EXACTLY! People r siding with rhaenyra, without acknowledging she didn't even help HER OWN CAUSE, 😒 😑 🙄
If she were to be a true heir, she should have acted like one
"oh she's a kid" my ass, she was a kid, NEXT IN LINE to 7 fucking kingdoms, she shouldn't have been all "woe me I don't want this cause im not prepared" & instead should have been "I need allies TO prepare me"
Or something atleast
@Red Admiral Of Valyria she needed to be the best political mind in the history of Westeros in order to ascent the throne. Instead she was basically as good as her Dad. This is unfair because if she was a man, she could be mediocre and nobody would bar an eye. I mean look at Aegon II! The only person who could’ve trained her was Otto and he is actively working to undermine her 🤷🏾♀️ This is a shakespearean tragedy! With dragons! I’m personally very excited to see it unfold!
Oh yes clearly the faction that has the man who used his own daughter to manipulate a man who lost his wife,the faction with a king who is a r****t who entertains himself by watching literal children including some of his own fight gladiator style and the with the one eyed incompetant sociopath must clearly be the good side.
Viserys
Otto Hightower
Why is it everyone blaming Viserys? It was all Otto (and Larys) fault.
1. Otto is the one who suggested Rhaenyra over Daemon. And the voting is agreed by the small council so quit saying Viserys violated the law bcs BY LAW, it has to pass to Daemon. Jaeherys ask his council to choose between Viserys/Rhaenys and they chose Viserys. And Viserys did the same, the council chose Rhaenyra. IF Otto said "Aegon is the king's son and Rhae usurped his right" then why he suggest Rhae over Daemon and made everyone bend the knee to her? *He made Viserys chose his daughter and robbed Daemon from his birth right, then tell everyone Rhae usurped Aegon from his birth right?* I mean the hypocrisy here is just.... He's blocking Daemon and he'll block Rhae no matter what. So it doesn't matter Rhae bore a legitimate heir/bstrd, Otto will bring upon her ruin to install his own grandson. When Otto said to her "stale oath won't keep you on the throne, princess" is quite stupid. I was surprised Daemon didn't snatch his head immediately. Bcs the oath is meant to be kept for the rest of their lives. Surely Viserys not intend to keep asking the lords to renew their oaths each year, does he?
2. Viserys clearly said to Rhae he need to remarry to strengthen the Targaryen dynasty. So if something happen to Rhae, house Targaryen won't be extinct. So to Viserys, Alicent children is Rhae's spare. Not the other way around. And Alicent knows that. And then there was Larys. Alicent was mad to Rhae bcs she took Criston. The actor of young Alicent said Alicent was in love to Criston
3. If anyone remember Rhaenys dialogue with Alicent: "and yet you toil still in the service of men. Your father, your husband, your son. You desire not to be free but to make a window in the wall of your prison." Alicent doesn't want her sacrifice gone for nothing so she thinks it all be worth if her son get to be the king and she'd rule under his son's name
4. The next line from Rhaenys proves me right. Rhaenys said "have you never imagined yourself on the iron throne?" and she leave no answer. I believe that's also the reason why Rhaenys was in rush to go to Dragonstone. Bcs she knows her intention. Pay attention for what Helaena said to the her maid in EP9 right after Alicent scene usurping Rhaenyra. She said "it is our fate, I think, to crave what is given to another. If one posseses thing, the other will take it away." She was talking abt the twins of course but in GOT universe, *every dialogue mean something.* Take a look back on EP1 and pay a close attention to the way Alicent look at Rhaenyra being crowned. It seems like, she looks at her with green eyes.
In conclusion, it was actually Otto's fault to sacrifice his daughter for his ambition but Alicent make it worse
Otto Hightower is the correct answer
Otto
Otto and the greens. Without his fuckery with alicent and Viserys none of this would've happened.
Women, of course.
daemon is to blame.
Alicent and the hightowers assumption that if rhaenyra takes the throne alicents childrens lives will be in danger is true, both in world and in real life they would be eliminated due to the threat they pose, you can see the threat a sibling with a strong claim can pose when the first blackfyre rebellion happened, daeron despite being a good king naturally pissed some people off and them lords rose up in rebellion to put daemon on the throne instead, aegon has an extremely strong claim, not only is he the oldest son of the last king which in many many lords eyes makes him the rightful king which is enough of a reason for them to rebel, the second she does something a lord doesnt like that lord will instantly start working to put aegon on the throne instead, the only way for rhaenyra to secure her throne is to kill, aegon, aemond and any of their sons.
the reason i put the blame on daemon however is when alicent and otto offer rhaenyra the rulership of dragonstone while aegon takes the throne, she seems willing to accept this offer to avoid war, its daemon that ends the negotiations and starts the war, aemond killing luke was the first death but the war had already started, they were both already amassing forces ready to fight.
If you want a real life example of siblings having to be killed then you could look at pretty much any civilization but the most prominent example would be the ottomans where it may as well have been a tradition where when a new sultan came to power he would kill any brother/relative who he saw as having too much influence and could be a threat to his control.
you could also put the blame on viserys, after aegons birth the majority of the lords of westaros even without the king saying so assumed aegon was now heir, you can see this in how lord lannister spoke about rhaenyra when he offered his hand in marriage, viserys should be smart enough to know that a queen would never be accepted while a male heir was available, so he should have ended the conflict there and then by naming aegon the official heir and marry rhaenyra off to some high lord.
Majority really :
Ryneara's side in the dance : All of the Crownlands except kingslanding and the the Blacks took Kingslanding in less then 1 day, All of the North, All of the Riverlands except house Bracken, Half of the Reach, 3 houses of the Stormlands, All of the Vale, house Yronwood of Dorne with ser Gyles Yronwood and Mysaria mistress of whisperers.
Greens side in the dance : Every Realm that supports them is defieded is even their home of the Reach is rebeling against them oh and Casterly rock but they couldnt get passed the Riverlands so they were useless.
@Yusuf Raage no, you are simply incorrect,
Black side: They do have the crownlands but the velaryons are the only noteworthy house, they do have the riverlands except bracken, strong and a few other houses, 'Half the reach' no, they had house tarly 1/59 is not even close to 'half'. they have 3 out of 39 houses in the stormlands, Vale nominal support but no troops sent and even the nominal support is not the entire vale because half the vale hate daemon and will never side with him, and a single dornish house.
Now compared to the greens who have the entirety of the westerlands, nearly the entirety of the reach apart from a single house, and nearly all of the stormlands, you then add in a few rebel houses such as the brackens, and you will quickly see that indeed the majority of the lords support aegon.
Otto and Viserys.
****SPOILER ALERT*****
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I absolutely CANNOT WAIT until Rhaenrya has Otto beheaded. I literally hate that man. Obviously a lot of the characters have made mistakes that built up to the Civil War, but that’s exactly what they were, mistakes. Otto was always fully aware of what he was doing and what the outcome would be, and was willing to use and abuse the trust of everyone around him, including his own daughter while she was too young and naive to fully piece together what her father was doing. Viserys did make a lot of mistakes and his mistakes did have a snowball effect on the entire realm, but he was never trying to start a war within his family. He had a kind heart and clearly suffered a lot throughout his reign between the death of the one woman he truly loved, the loss of more than one child, the realization that the woman he tried to find love with again was only a pawn in The Game who was using him, the headaches caused to him by daemon through the years, and the physical and mental deterioration he suffered from the throne itself. While both sides fanned the flams of war, it was ultimately the Greens, spearheaded by Otto, who caused the Civil War, the division of the realm, and the loss of the dragons.
****SPOILER ALERT*****
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I absolutely CANNOT WAIT until Rhaenrya has Otto beheaded. I literally hate that man. Obviously a lot of the characters have made mistakes that built up to the Civil War, but that’s exactly what they were, mistakes. Otto was always fully aware of what he was doing and what the outcome would be, and was willing to use and abuse the trust of everyone around him, including his own daughter while she was too young and naive to fully piece together what her father was doing. Viserys did make a lot of mistakes and his mistakes did have a snowball effect on the entire realm, but he was never trying to start a war within his family. He had a kind heart and clearly suffered a lot throughout his reign between the death of the one woman he truly loved, the loss of more than one child, the realization that the woman he tried to find love with again was only a pawn in The Game who was using him, the headaches caused to him by daemon through the years, and the physical and mental deterioration he suffered from the throne itself. While both sides fanned the flams of war, it was ultimately the Greens, spearheaded by Otto, who caused the Civil War, the division of the realm, and the loss of the dragons.